00;00;00;23 - 00;00;06;58
Speaker 2
I have such an amazing guest here today. Nancy, pop pantsing up on Instagram.
00;00;06;58 - 00;00;09;43
Speaker 1
Feel vertical.
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Speaker 2
Nancy, thank you for being here.
00;00;12;18 - 00;00;14;00
Speaker 1
Thank you for having me.
00;00;14;05 - 00;00;16;31
Speaker 2
I would say your hyphenate are.
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Speaker 2
Friend.
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Speaker 1
Oh. Thank you.
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Speaker 2
Director.
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Speaker 2
Producer. Actor, writer, in that order. But you tell me, am I right? Am I wrong? Friend zero.
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Speaker 1
Take the friend off. First of all, don't get it twisted. No, I think that's pretty spot on. Maybe, like, switch the actor producer around? Yeah.
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Speaker 2
So I met you kind of a long time ago now.
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Speaker 1
We do. We age.
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Speaker 2
No, we do not. You were so driven and so prolific with the filmmaking, and I just wanted to do
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Speaker 2
many films with you, which we then kind of did and still do.
00;01;04;11 - 00;01;12;20
Speaker 2
we're going to get to the vertical. She directs the vertical features and produces them as well and just is like super powerhouse on the vertical scene right now.
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Speaker 2
But I'm curious. Like
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Speaker 2
in terms of how this all started, like what was your first entry to the New York filmmaking scene?
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Speaker 2
but yeah, like how how did you get your start doing all this?
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Speaker 1
So I moved to New York for college, and I, went to Marymount College. I was studying acting. I minored in playwriting. I never sought out to direct. I never sought out to produce. I didn't even know what a producer did. I really just wanted to be an actor and write stories that I could act in with my friends and.
00;01;44;20 - 00;01;55;59
Speaker 1
And take that somewhere. And then when I started taking playwriting classes, I had an idea of, like, the show based on, you know, college dating. Everyone's like, first little.
00;01;55;59 - 00;01;57;08
Speaker 2
Film that they had one of those.
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Speaker 1
Two. Yeah, we all have one of those. And my advisor, my college advisor was like, oh, the web series boom is happening right now. Like, you should turn this into a web series. So I did,
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Speaker 1
it was called Cinderella.
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Speaker 2
Perfect.
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Speaker 1
And, I filmed it over the course of the summer using money that I had left over from, like, waitressing and bartending. And that web series ended up helping me get my first producing job, right out of college, I think I was actually in my last year of college. I was juggling school and this producing job where I was, producing radio shows, podcasts, demo reels, reality TV segments, man on the street style interviews, like just a variety of different media.
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Speaker 1
I was at that job for two and a half years casting, producing, writing, miscellaneous kind of things that I grew to learn is what kind of it means to be a producer.
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Speaker 2
Whatever it takes.
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Speaker 1
Whatever it takes to get it done. Yeah. And then, I ended up leaving that job, after two and a half years because I started making my own films, and I wanted to do narrative
00;03;00;29 - 00;03;17;26
Speaker 1
So I left the producing job and I started doing just like no budget shorts. I produced and directed a feature when I was like 21, 22 and again, like, no budget things, you're just learning as you're going and kind of making it up as you go along and doing your genuine best.
00;03;17;26 - 00;03;42;35
Speaker 1
But like in hindsight, I'm like, oh man, that was but yeah. And then Covid hit after, you know, I think I was out of college then for like 3 or 4 years, Covid hit and I started doing Covid compliance work, getting on more sites, bigger sites, commercials, feature films, things like that. And I ended up getting a producing job at a beauty brand.
00;03;42;35 - 00;04;01;30
Speaker 1
So I was an in-house producer doing commercial campaigns, photo shoots, things like that. But, from there it just kind of grew, ironically, yeah, Covid was kind of a weird stimulant for my career, in the sense that not many people were still in the city and or working. And so there was a lot of opportunities to get on set.
00;04;01;30 - 00;04;09;34
Speaker 1
And the coach job was like, in hindsight, it's kind of like, whatever. But it, you know, got me on more sets,
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Speaker 1
got me meeting more people. And, yeah, exposing me to like just different work styles and practices.
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Speaker 2
Yeah. Because I think in spite of the fact that you did not go to film school, you have directed more features than anyone I know that's been to film school.
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Speaker 2
I think you've directed more features than anyone I know, period. Yeah.
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Speaker 2
So what is the secret to just keeping like if you have a motor inside you that is generating all these opportunities and all these days on set, like what fuels the motor, what fuels you to do all of the things that you do?
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Speaker 1
I think I just have a really insatiable curiosity of like wanting to wanting to be, you know, be around more people, work with more people, see different perspectives, bring stories to life, test the limits of, like, what I'm capable of doing and what I'm able to do with the team. Get creative, make magic, learn something new.
00;05;08;33 - 00;05;29;35
Speaker 1
And then I think as artists behind everything that we do, there's like a need for whether it's like changing the world or entertaining or educating people, or if you have like a cause behind what you do. I think for me, it's like I genuinely enjoy entertaining and, you know, I'm an actor and a performer first. And I used to do improv and stand up and all these things.
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Speaker 2
And used to do stand.
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Speaker 1
Up. I used to do stand up. Yeah, I had a I had my own podcast once upon a time it was called coffee. And, you know.
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Speaker 1
But that was, Yeah, another lifetime.
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Speaker 1
But I just love entertaining people. So I think I'm really just drawn to stories that have that more entertainment factor to them, whether it's like making people laugh or bringing people together, you know, causing those like warm good feelings. And so I feel like this vertical space that I've landed in recently is kind of.
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Speaker 2
It's a fit.
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Speaker 1
Good for that. Yeah.
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Speaker 2
Yeah. That's so interesting because I feel like I'm also coming into my purpose as a filmmaker, which is the I mean, I would call it activism changing the world through the art. Yeah. And but I've only recently started on that. Initially, I was in the entertainment space with comedy digital comedy series and it really feels like a fit, like I'm feeling more lift off now with issue driven, dramatic pieces, which is so far away from where I started.
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Speaker 2
Do you feel the same of like where you are now is far from where you started, or do you feel like you were doing entertainment from the beginning?
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Speaker 1
I think I've been doing entertainment from the beginning. That first producing job that I had was again, like
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Speaker 1
very, you know,
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Speaker 1
audience for word. And it was it's that type of media, podcast, radio shows, reality TV that's made for the audience rather than being made for the artist. It's not to say that I don't make things for myself, like I have several features and a series that I wrote and other projects that I would love to do beyond the verticals I'm directing right now some day.
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Speaker 1
But yeah, I think for me it was always very entertainment forward. And then to answer your question,
00;07;09;10 - 00;07;15;26
Speaker 1
am I like, very far off? Yeah, I would say so. Like, I never thought that I would be directing.
00;07;15;31 - 00;07;31;26
Speaker 1
And I never would have thought that, like, people would be wanting to make movies for Instagram or for apps like mobile forward audiences. Like, that's still, I think, a little not like a crazy concept because we are so addicted to our phones, unfortunately. But,
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Speaker 1
no one really saw that coming for the last. Like what, like 5 to 10 years?
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Speaker 2
Yeah, to me it makes a lot of sense. I mean, I don't have a lot of experience with verticals, but,
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Speaker 2
what I understand is that there is a very large overseas audience, and if they want fresh, updated like of the now moment content, like they want to see stories like of now, they're going to need new movies.
00;08;02;32 - 00;08;31;08
Speaker 2
I mean, you can only watch Die Hard so many times, and some of them may not have access to TVs at home or Netflix or movie theaters. But almost everyone now on the planet has access to a cell phone. So when I started thinking I was seeing it this last week of like, why are these verticals so big overseas China, India, Southeast Asia
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Speaker 1
It's accessibility.
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Speaker 2
Yeah.
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Speaker 1
What you're saying.
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Speaker 1
My first cell phone was a Nokia brick. If you had told me like 20 years ago that that thing would be able to FaceTime my grandma in Romania, like nine hours ahead, I'd be like, you're crazy. But now everyone has that and that is, for better or for worse,
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Speaker 1
our accessibility to the world and other parts around the world is accessibility to us.
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Speaker 2
Yeah, totally.
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Speaker 1
Which is mind blowing. This 7 billion people in the world and we, many of us have that device that we can just tune in anywhere.
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Speaker 2
Yeah. And and also the fact that there a lot of the overseas correct me if I'm wrong here, but the overseas audiences, many of them are interested in American actors for these. Is that correct?
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Speaker 1
Well, I think it depends. So I've like directed some projects that were specifically more for American audiences. And then I've directed projects that were for, an Asian or an East Asian market. And like in short, yes. But also there's so many verticals that do specifically cast Chinese actors for for Chinese audiences.
00;09;43;30 - 00;09;45;03
Speaker 2
And they're filming over and they're China.
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Speaker 1
And China, India. That's like their own thing over there. And those, I don't think, translate to an American audience. It's a very different style to very different, like
00;09;52;50 - 00;10;05;48
Speaker 1
writing culture, like the stories are, I think, more like too risque for American audiences. But then I've also directed projects where it's like, oh, we already have the Chinese version of this.
00;10;05;48 - 00;10;16;24
Speaker 1
You're going to make the American version. And I'm kind of like, how do I do that? Because the Chinese version is so different, and I don't think it's received by American audiences as well.
00;10;16;29 - 00;10;37;28
Speaker 2
yeah. I mean, already the market is too big to really even generalize about it. Because there's already micro pockets of different audiences, different styles, different genres. And it's just in the news this week, it's like, oh, Hollywood's now on the train. Doing like prestige vertical dramas.
00;10;37;33 - 00;10;38;58
Speaker 1
What does that mean? Prestige.
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Speaker 2
It means, like, not schlocky, not soap opera, but more like, no, this is a real this is a real film.
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Speaker 1
Yeah.
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Speaker 2
Kind of like what? Quibi. I think was trying to be. Yeah. But failed. Can you? I mean, just imagine that you're those investors and you're like, we were five years too early and we lost. Like however many billions of dollars.
00;10;58;30 - 00;11;18;12
Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean, I don't obviously like I wasn't a part of that. I don't know the inner workings of it, but my best guess would be that if, if you know a new type of product or a new type of media is like still at a very early stage, maybe don't dump all the money in at once. But I don't know.
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Speaker 1
I'm not an executive on those types of things.
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Speaker 2
Yeah,
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Speaker 2
As far as what we do know about, like, general wisdom about verticals, what would you say to our audience? It's like, I want to get into verticals, but I don't know how. Or are they even right for me, or is it going to be a terrible experience? Like what?
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Speaker 2
What is the general wisdom that you can offer?
00;11;40;32 - 00;12;00;11
Speaker 1
Verticals are very fast paced. You're shooting anywhere from 8 to 20 pages a day. The most I've done is 16. And that was like such a stretch of a push. They're very fast paced. If you're not someone that can quickly remember lines, or where at least get the gist of the scene down, it's probably not for you.
00;12;00;16 - 00;12;15;04
Speaker 1
But that being said, it is a great way to get those skills up to snuff. I would say the projects, you know, every app is different, every script is somewhat different. There is like that genre of verticals where it's like
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Speaker 1
billionaire werewolf, mafia overlord, brother's son, like whatever, like there's that part of the vertical world and and.
00;12;21;59 - 00;12;25;32
Speaker 2
They will be called that as well will be called My Billionaire Werewolf boss.
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Speaker 1
My billionaire werewolf boss fucked my goddaughter, rich and senseless. Something bleep that out.
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Speaker 2
We don't Bleep around here.
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Speaker 1
Okay.
00;12;34;52 - 00;12;38;05
Speaker 2
Great. We give a round. Yeah.
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Speaker 2
But.
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Speaker 1
Those exist. And then like what you're saying these like prestige ones also exist where. Yeah it's not quite a full feature but it's not really a vertical anymore. So it's more like hallmark style and it's a little less soap opera, a little more realism, but there is still heightened drama to it. Otherwise it wouldn't work in the vertical world.
00;13;00;12 - 00;13;18;30
Speaker 1
I think like the biggest misconception around verticals is that it's not trying to be a film, it's not trying to replace cinema, it's not trying to replace when we go to the movies and watch an epic two hour long movie that was shot on film, it looks beautiful. It's not meant to be that. It's an entirely different thing.
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Speaker 2
What's it trying to do?
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Speaker 1
It's trying to get your money. You're on your phones. It's trying to make you buy coins and watch the whole thing. It's user retention. It's like, I mean, I don't know, I can't I can't speak for the whole thing. But like, you know, at the end of the day, it's a business. Right? And so if you're buying coins to watch a show or to watch the rest of a show, that's that's just commerce.
00;13;39;17 - 00;13;39;40
Speaker 1
It's art.
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Speaker 2
I didn't realize that was how it worked. Yes. You buy coins.
00;13;43;55 - 00;14;04;15
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think I mean, I again, I don't know all the apps, I don't know all the platforms, but from what I know, you'll, you'll watch like 10 to 20 free episodes. The hook, they'll hook you in and it's high drama. You gotta know what happens next. So you're like, how many coins? 100 coins do one coins? And then that's like, what, two, five, ten bucks, something like that.
00;14;04;15 - 00;14;07;17
Speaker 2
So the movie is metered out in episodes almost.
00;14;07;22 - 00;14;13;13
Speaker 1
Yeah. So each episode can be anywhere from 30s to three minutes long, give or take.
00;14;13;18 - 00;14;16;43
Speaker 2
Whoa. Yeah. Addictive film watching.
00;14;16;43 - 00;14;38;05
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's like we're spending so much time on apps like Instagram, YouTube shorts, Facebook Reels, and we're just constantly scrolling. I mean, there's so many videos to where it's it's trying to target all of your sensory things going on. It's like you see textures on screen, you hear different sounds, you see text, you hear the narrator. I mean, that's like a very,
00;14;38;14 - 00;14;40;58
Speaker 1
specific and like, far reaching version of it.
00;14;41;03 - 00;14;50;58
Speaker 1
It's a similar thing with verticals like, they're, you know, they're pulling at your heartstrings. They're also, I think part of the slop is also part of the charm. Like.
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Speaker 2
That's our promo clip right.
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Speaker 1
There, though, like, the slope is part of the charm. Some of the best, some of the most viewed and most engaged with verticals online. The lighting, a shirt like there's not really a lot of continuity. The acting is like over the top, but it like, people watch that. Yeah, it like sticks you to it because you're like, sometimes watching a train wreck and you can't look away.
00;15;15;57 - 00;15;37;52
Speaker 1
Not that all verticals are like that, but like some of the ones that, that do the best online. Yeah, those are the mobile audience. Like they're watching stuff to, to pass time. They're watching stuff to decompress from work. Not everyone wants to come home after work and ten, 12 hours and sit through Oppenheimer. Yeah. Like some people just want that easy kind of rage baity clickbaity stuff.
00;15;37;57 - 00;16;03;13
Speaker 2
Yeah, that reminds me of the I was watching the Drew ski clip today. He did, Erica Kirk, do you know who she is? No, he's a black 31 year old comedian, influencer. Okay, a little bit on the larger side. So you can imagine how funny it is when he did a full white face, blond wig parody of Erica Kirk.
00;16;03;13 - 00;16;04;09
Speaker 1
Drag queen Eric.
00;16;04;09 - 00;16;08;11
Speaker 2
Kirk. He did. She's furious. She's like trying to sue and get the takedown.
00;16;08;20 - 00;16;09;36
Speaker 1
Over it, girl.
00;16;09;41 - 00;16;27;56
Speaker 2
But I watched the clip and it's like, I don't know how many if 50 million views so far. I mean, he's just absolutely slaying with this video and it's like, very obviously a man in, you know, makeup.
00;16;27;56 - 00;16;39;29
Speaker 2
It's good. It's also very good makeup. But to your point, it's like I tell my clients, you can get more views on social media than you would with a Netflix show.
00;16;39;34 - 00;16;40;19
Speaker 1
You can totally come.
00;16;40;19 - 00;16;43;56
Speaker 2
With your, like, series regular on a Netflix series.
00;16;43;56 - 00;16;44;16
Speaker 1
Have you
00;16;44;16 - 00;17;10;28
Speaker 1
heard about the cool girl in India? She like, designs her own clothes and she just makes videos of herself on Instagram. Literally just walking around India looking cool, vibing and like it's become such a trend that other people are mimicking the video style and being like, trying to be the cool girl in India. But I'm just the cool girl in Beirut, or I'm just the cool girl in South Korea, or I'm just the cool girl in Egypt, but at the same video style, same like things that they're doing.
00;17;10;28 - 00;17;20;22
Speaker 1
And it's just like walking around, grabbing a sandwich, saying hello to a neighbor, helping them move a table, and all the while she's just looking cool as hell.
00;17;20;27 - 00;17;22;24
Speaker 2
That's funny. That's very you.
00;17;22;29 - 00;17;42;56
Speaker 1
But it's it's the accessibility behind it. It's like, again, like you Bretman Rock started out as just like a kid messing around on his iPhone, and he's like, built an entire I don't even know, maybe it was even before the time of iPhones but just messed around on YouTube. Instagram, made these funny videos, made people laugh, built this huge platform, and like, what did you start with?
00;17;42;56 - 00;18;01;56
Speaker 1
Just like a simple phone. And like, that's the thing that I think so many people, so many actors to like, get stuck behind is like, everyone's telling you, like, make your own content. It's like you don't need to make a whole short film to validate that you're an actor. If like, what is your motivation with acting? What is it that you're trying to do?
00;18;01;56 - 00;18;05;22
Speaker 1
Can you not do that in between booking roles?
00;18;05;26 - 00;18;06;53
Speaker 1
Oh mine.
00;18;06;58 - 00;18;26;28
Speaker 2
For sure. Yeah. And and I think so many actors that I talk to because I talk to actors every day and so many of them are either unconsciously or consciously chasing the dream that Oppenheimer dream, that prestige dream of, you know, who doesn't want to get up on stage and like Michael B Jordan, it. And when you're Oscar.
00;18;26;32 - 00;18;30;44
Speaker 2
Yeah, and I do. Yeah. And like Jessie Buckley it but.
00;18;30;49 - 00;18;39;49
Speaker 2
If that's your only dream you're going to be very limited in the path to getting there. Yeah. Versus you could be acting every single day with your phone
00;18;39;54 - 00;18;41;03
Speaker 2
totally.
00;18;41;08 - 00;19;05;01
Speaker 1
You could be acting every single day. You could be building an audience that could get you there someday. You could be, you know, people sharing your videos or sharing your talent or whatever, and that lands in the right person's lap. I think people really limit themselves by not being online, but I do also understand the other side of it, where it's like, like life doesn't need to be live so fast and so loose all the time.
00;19;05;01 - 00;19;07;43
Speaker 1
Some people really love that kind of like.
00;19;07;48 - 00;19;08;38
Speaker 2
Slow and hard.
00;19;08;43 - 00;19;10;33
Speaker 1
No,
00;19;10;38 - 00;19;28;17
Speaker 1
you've got me there. Some people love to just, like, be unplugged. And I totally get that. And I love that too, when I can have those, those periods of time. But I just think that the world and the cultures kind of unfortunately at a point almost beyond that. And that's like a luxury to to be unplugged.
00;19;28;22 - 00;19;29;19
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00;19;29;23 - 00;19;37;33
Speaker 1
And if you have that luxury power to you, I love that for you. But like some of us are still building careers out here, you know, and like you need that as a tool.
00;19;37;38 - 00;19;46;29
Speaker 2
So let's tell all the actors what are some hot tips for auditioning for verticals? Like, what do they need to bear in mind? Because I'm sure you've seen 1,000,000,001 tapes by now.
00;19;46;39 - 00;19;49;35
Speaker 1
God, I have so many things to say. So I just look through
00;19;49;41 - 00;20;04;26
Speaker 1
2000 casting submissions in the last three weeks and like the amount of just crazy, like no nos that I saw, I had people sending me. I had shots like literally I had shots and then I go to like the next photo over
00;20;04;26 - 00;20;06;09
Speaker 1
and they look like a totally different person.
00;20;06;09 - 00;20;08;05
Speaker 2
I'm like, why would they do that? No.
00;20;08;10 - 00;20;10;05
Speaker 1
It's insane. I don't know.
00;20;10;10 - 00;20;11;42
Speaker 2
Don't don't do an I had.
00;20;11;42 - 00;20;37;25
Speaker 1
Never do an like, no, just don't do it. And if you can't afford a headshot, that's okay. Have someone take a nice daylight photo of your face looking normal, looking like yourself. Don't do this. And then put it through Facetune and, like, add a bunch of makeup. Like, it would just. It scared me. And I like that image is burned in my mind now forever that I had shot, that I got.
00;20;37;30 - 00;20;58;09
Speaker 1
But I would get a lot of I would get a lot of that. I would get a lot of people just like not following the casting directions. Not like, you know, I understand as an actor myself, you're submitting to things every day. You kind of get lost in the sauce sometimes. But what's the point of submitting if you're not going to do it right and show the people on the other side that you're willing to play ball?
00;20;58;14 - 00;21;20;58
Speaker 1
Yeah. You know, so that's, you know, but 2000 submissions, you're going to get some of those. I get it. I think the biggest thing for actors to understand with verticals is that they need to know their type. Verticals are very trophy. They're very like, are you the are you the romantic female lead? The young Aunjanue, are you the like hardened CEO mafia boss?
00;21;20;58 - 00;21;21;48
Speaker 1
Are you like.
00;21;21;59 - 00;21;24;23
Speaker 2
The rich older mom?
00;21;24;37 - 00;21;29;30
Speaker 1
Yeah. Are you are you the mILF? Are you a mILF? And you're. You're such a mILF.
00;21;29;30 - 00;21;31;46
Speaker 2
Oh my God. Okay.
00;21;31;51 - 00;21;51;50
Speaker 1
Like what? Like, who are you in the context of these worlds, you know, and playing to that, like playing to that strength rather than, rather than trying to like, expand out of your box. I think getting into verticals is about understanding that box and embracing it. And it's campy. It's fun. It's not supposed to be this big, serious Oppenheimer thing.
00;21;51;50 - 00;21;53;21
Speaker 1
It's it's content.
00;21;53;25 - 00;21;54;12
Speaker 2
It's not that deep.
00;21;54;21 - 00;22;14;26
Speaker 1
It's not that deep. And, you know, I think for actors and for me as a director, like, it's been such an incredible learning experience, a learning opportunity. I'm directing three back to back vertical features right now, and it's like a crash course in directing. It's a crash course in like, you know, producing too. And for the actors, it's a crash course in acting.
00;22;14;26 - 00;22;20;22
Speaker 1
Like, how do you build a 100 page script and shoot it in eight, nine, ten days.
00;22;20;22 - 00;22;20;42
Speaker 2
Cheap.
00;22;20;49 - 00;22;28;39
Speaker 1
And, and flex those acting skills? And I know actors that are making a whole ass living on it made more money than than.
00;22;28;39 - 00;22;29;52
Speaker 2
They ever had, I know. Yeah.
00;22;29;52 - 00;22;50;43
Speaker 1
Then unlike other DPS or directors, I know like it's crazy. And so I think people should embrace it well while it's hot, because who knows if it'll stick around? I mean, I think it will. I think it is here to stay. I think it's a totally new type of media. And I think it's here to stay, but I am just one person, so that's my opinion.
00;22;50;47 - 00;22;55;52
Speaker 2
What do you think is the range you see for day rates, for actors, for verticals?
00;22;55;57 - 00;23;00;19
Speaker 1
I've seen ranges anywhere from 250 to 2000.
00;23;00;23 - 00;23;01;25
Speaker 2
2000 a day.
00;23;01;30 - 00;23;04;58
Speaker 1
2000 a day for, male leads. Wow.
00;23;05;00 - 00;23;07;41
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's a tidy living. Yeah.
00;23;07;46 - 00;23;29;10
Speaker 1
But, you know, again, it's like you're negotiating based on experience, based on, if they're traveling and negotiating on on a bunch of different things, it's it's not just like, casting such and such. And I'm offering 2000 right off the bat, you know, it's like it's a negotiation process. But I've seen that, and I've heard of that.
00;23;29;15 - 00;23;53;40
Speaker 1
And then 250 for like day players supporting roles. I think the sweet spot though, for leads that I've seen is like anywhere from like 550 to 1200. So the 2000 is definitely, like on the higher end. Yeah. And again, that comes with experience. That comes with a platform in the vertical world that comes with like, you know, how to do this type of media, you know, how to deliver this type of call.
00;23;53;41 - 00;23;55;19
Speaker 2
Yeah. Because sometimes it's one take.
00;23;55;19 - 00;24;03;12
Speaker 1
I don't I don't know of any actor that like big books their first vertical and they're making two grand a day. So yeah, let's get one thing straight.
00;24;03;16 - 00;24;04;21
Speaker 2
Got it, got it, got it.
00;24;04;26 - 00;24;13;54
Speaker 2
But yeah, I when I was shooting the film that I did with the you were directing, I wanted to see what it was like on set, on a vertical. And I had a great experience.
00;24;13;54 - 00;24;14;42
Speaker 1
How was it for you?
00;24;14;42 - 00;24;15;45
Speaker 2
Yeah, it was.
00;24;15;51 - 00;24;18;22
Speaker 1
Like being a vertical actor.
00;24;18;27 - 00;24;21;52
Speaker 2
It was awesome because I've done so much improv and because I'm not nervous.
00;24;21;58 - 00;24;30;48
Speaker 2
But I also feel like you did one take or two takes on me because you knew I could just get it. I didn't need, like, some actors need multiple takes.
00;24;30;57 - 00;24;41;53
Speaker 2
I felt like no anxiety on set. Okay. Which is to your credit, no stage fright whatsoever. Just super happy to be there. And then I also,
00;24;41;53 - 00;24;50;08
Speaker 2
was ready. Like, every time you guys were ready, I was ready because I didn't want to waste a single second of time. And I knew that we had to move quickly.
00;24;50;08 - 00;24;55;57
Speaker 2
So I was like, hoping to get it in one, you know, not always possible due to camera or lighting, whatever. But,
00;24;56;02 - 00;25;04;23
Speaker 2
I do think that's something to guard against. So like, candidly, is people's attitudes about verticals.
00;25;04;28 - 00;25;08;30
Speaker 1
I'm fighting internet trolls every day.
00;25;08;35 - 00;25;30;57
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. And I thought I saw that a little bit on set to be honest. But I also see it in conversations with actors like out and about where they are really negative on verticals, almost like for no reason. They're like, oh, it's trash is this is that's like, what's that Burger King commercial? You did like,
00;25;31;02 - 00;25;32;19
Speaker 2
it's just different.
00;25;32;24 - 00;25;54;58
Speaker 2
No one's making you go to that job. No one's making you submit for it. But they're like, really? I understand there's a lot to be mad about as an actor right now. And a lot to be scared about. But I think that verticals become a scapegoat, and I, I sense a little bit of that negativity from a couple people on set of like, kind of shit talking because it was a vertical and that.
00;25;54;58 - 00;26;07;29
Speaker 2
So that was a little bit of a bummer. I was like, man, I'm here. Like, I think this is cool. Yeah. And it's also not like nothing. The money's not nothing. So those are my thoughts on it.
00;26;07;33 - 00;26;28;52
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean the I, I get it, I get it from an actors standpoint. I get it from a crew's standpoint, I get it. I think that, it's very easy to buy into the negativity. It's very easy to, jump into those kinds of conversations and kind of chum it up and, you know.
00;26;28;52 - 00;26;29;41
Speaker 2
Dogpile.
00;26;29;46 - 00;26;48;42
Speaker 1
Dogpile on, like, stand together and, and whatnot. And I get it. There's it's not just like the whole rest of the film industry. It's not a perfect industry. And it's a new thing and it's in development and people don't know where it's going. But at the end of the day, yeah, you can choose to do it or you can choose to not do it.
00;26;48;42 - 00;26;53;07
Speaker 1
And no one is gun to your head being like you are starring in my next vertical.
00;26;53;07 - 00;26;54;33
Speaker 2
I mean, that's kind of half when you do that.
00;26;54;46 - 00;26;58;21
Speaker 1
Daddy billionaire x CEO husband.
00;26;58;36 - 00;26;59;51
Speaker 2
I like this right? Like this.
00;26;59;51 - 00;27;01;45
Speaker 1
No one is making anyone do that.
00;27;01;56 - 00;27;05;47
Speaker 2
You should do that later. For me. I'm.
00;27;05;52 - 00;27;16;28
Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean, I don't know, I feel like that the negativity around it is, like, kind of silly. And I think it's a waste of energy. I think it's like, yes, show some curiosity.
00;27;16;28 - 00;27;17;00
Speaker 2
Yes.
00;27;17;00 - 00;27;21;24
Speaker 1
Rather than just like being a negative Nancy.
00;27;21;28 - 00;27;23;40
Speaker 2
Be a positive. Be a positive pop.
00;27;23;52 - 00;27;27;32
Speaker 1
Well, you don't even need to be a positive pop. You can be just neutral and curious.
00;27;27;32 - 00;27;28;18
Speaker 2
A neutral Nancy.
00;27;28;18 - 00;27;32;36
Speaker 1
A neutral Nancy. And you could be, a curious Calvert.
00;27;32;37 - 00;27;34;02
Speaker 2
Yeah. Thank you.
00;27;34;16 - 00;27;48;18
Speaker 1
And and learn. You know, it's again, it's a new thing. Learn everything you can about it and then make a decision. And whatever your decision is, just go about your day. Yeah. If you want to make no budget features for the rest of your life, go do that.
00;27;48;21 - 00;28;06;10
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think some of it comes from I've heard a couple of agents trickling down to their clients that they don't want clients who have done verticals. Oh, yeah. So like drawing a line in the sand of, like, you guys are over there. We're over here.
00;28;06;24 - 00;28;31;26
Speaker 1
I am having a totally different experience as a producer director on verticals, and what I have been seeing more and more of throughout these recent casting processes is that a lot of these agents and agencies have opened up vertical divisions in their agency, and I find that fascinating because I'm seeing verticals at CCI in all these email threads with offers out to actors.
00;28;31;26 - 00;28;36;13
Speaker 1
Wow. And so I'm not seeing that from my side. But that is fascinating to know that.
00;28;36;15 - 00;28;42;12
Speaker 2
Do you think they're sort of corralling all of their vertical actors to one section?
00;28;42;17 - 00;28;51;23
Speaker 1
It's possible. Yeah. But again, we don't know where it's going. So perhaps in a year or two, sure, I'll be regretting that.
00;28;51;25 - 00;29;01;47
Speaker 2
Short sighted. Yeah. I find that if I were to generalize about vertical actors, the generalization would be that they're all very hot. Do you think that's accurate?
00;29;01;51 - 00;29;14;11
Speaker 1
I think all the leads are really hot. All the leads are really hot. They're supposed to be hot. There's it's I think in my creative directorial mind with the verticals, it's almost meant to be somewhat voyeuristic.
00;29;14;16 - 00;29;16;31
Speaker 2
Like you're putting fantasy driven. Yeah.
00;29;16;31 - 00;29;44;05
Speaker 1
It's like fantasy driven. Like, yeah, all this stuff is fantasy driven. And what world are you going to, like, accidentally have sex with someone? And then five years later, turns out they're your boss and they're a billionaire, and your son is their child. You know, it's it's all fantasy driven. And so, yeah, the actors are hot and they're good looking, and, many of them are talented and some of them can keep doing this for a little bit, you know?
00;29;44;05 - 00;30;12;39
Speaker 1
Sure. But, yeah, I mean, I would say, like, not all the supporting, the supporting, the day players, the one liners, the background. I think that's where there's like a bit more flexibility. Flexibility to have like more diversity, more, inclusion, more, different kinds of looks like you don't need to be that, gorgeous. Ten out of ten bombshell knockout.
00;30;12;42 - 00;30;23;51
Speaker 1
Yeah. You know, you can be just a person, or a really good actor. Some of the best actors I've worked with in my life so far have been some of the people that have played supporting roles in these verticals.
00;30;23;51 - 00;30;25;24
Speaker 2
Thanks.
00;30;25;28 - 00;30;26;49
Speaker 1
Case in point. Thanks.
00;30;26;49 - 00;30;59;53
Speaker 2
I know it's true, though, because I look at what I watch for Instagram Reels and I watch a lot of comedy, to be fair, and many, most of them are not conventionally attractive. I don't care, literally, I don't care. It's all shapes from like four feet tall on up to, you know, almost seven feet tall, like all different body types, all different cultural backgrounds, genders and so hopefully that, you know, vertical features can start to follow that as we build more of an American audience.
00;30;59;58 - 00;31;13;21
Speaker 2
Just because there is such a hunger for new faces, new faces, new type of I don't like new voices. Like I kind of like that. I said that it's a little bit cheesy, but you know what I mean? Like new shit.
00;31;13;26 - 00;31;17;00
Speaker 1
You shit. We love new shit. Yeah.
00;31;17;05 - 00;31;23;07
Speaker 2
So if you were to tell people where to find your shit, where would they go?
00;31;23;08 - 00;31;26;53
Speaker 1
You can find my shit, spiel vertical on Instagram.
00;31;26;58 - 00;31;32;27
Speaker 1
spiel vertical or my personal Instagram pantsing up, my alter ego.
00;31;32;32 - 00;31;44;06
Speaker 1
I also run a production company called in case you missed a production so people can also find me at I see why am I productions on Instagram or I see why my productions.com. We do all the verticals through. I see my.
00;31;44;06 - 00;31;49;06
Speaker 2
My and if people want to watch these verticals, where can they find them? Are there apps that they can go on there?
00;31;49;08 - 00;32;12;30
Speaker 1
There are apps. So the majority of the verticals that I've done, are on an app called salty TV. Salty TV definitely does more of like the cinematic higher quality, like proper narrative, almost like a hallmark film vertical style. I've directed four drama box and a few others. And every now and then I'll be sharing those clips on Instagram as I can.
00;32;12;35 - 00;32;26;49
Speaker 2
Cool. Well, I guess. Any final words of wisdom for filmmakers who are watching this right now and thinking, shucks, I wish I was more like Nancy.
00;32;26;54 - 00;32;36;53
Speaker 1
Well, you definitely don't wish that. And, I would say that I think my biggest sign off on verticals is.
00;32;36;58 - 00;32;42;46
Speaker 1
Show some curiosity, put your best foot forward, and
00;32;42;50 - 00;32;53;52
Speaker 1
I compare verticals almost to like, chekhovian plays, and some of them, like, have like a Shakespearean element to it. Yes. And back at the time of those plays and the playwright.
00;32;53;52 - 00;32;54;34
Speaker 2
That's right.
00;32;54;39 - 00;33;00;16
Speaker 1
People also made fun of or like that was their soap opera. Yeah. You know, that.
00;33;00;23 - 00;33;01;24
Speaker 2
People thought it was corny.
00;33;01;24 - 00;33;07;06
Speaker 1
It was corny, and that was their entertainment. And now in the 21st century, we look back on that and it's high art.
00;33;07;20 - 00;33;07;43
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00;33;07;43 - 00;33;13;57
Speaker 1
And so you might be shitting on it now. Yeah. You might not always be saying that later.
00;33;14;03 - 00;33;38;14
Speaker 2
Yeah for sure. And you know who was one of the biggest self promoters in history of acting was Shakespeare. Yes, he was relentless. And people were so shy to promote their work on social or anywhere. It's like, how are you going to get people to know what you're doing? Got to talk about it. Yeah. So everyone follow pantsing up on Instagram.
00;33;38;18 - 00;33;40;02
Speaker 2
and anywhere else LinkedIn.
00;33;40;06 - 00;33;55;49
Speaker 1
I'm on LinkedIn. Unfortunately, I'm on Facebook also, unfortunately. But I really Instagram is my digital home. That's where I build my digital garden. I'm on Pinterest a lot more times than Instagram. That's my digital cave. Okay, so I'm not social on Pinterest.
00;33;55;49 - 00;34;00;08
Speaker 2
Okay, great. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you.
00;34;00;08 - 00;34;02;05
Speaker 1
For having me.
00;34;02;10 - 00;34;02;39
Speaker 2
In a bonnet.
00;34;02;39 - 00;34;07;11
Speaker 1
Shabana been born to Shabana.
00;34;07;16 - 00;34;27;37
Speaker 1
The Vermillion Podcast is sponsored by Vermillion, a home for artists. We offer classes, coaching and community for creatives and innovators in the arts. If you're ready to find your voice and build the life of your dreams, we are here to support you every step of the way. Check out Club vermillion.com and schedule a free call today.
