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Welcome to The Vermillion Podcast, a free audio library of business strategies, creative inspiration and industry knowledge for actors, filmmakers, writers and anyone looking to activate their creative potential. I'm Misha Calvert, a writer director who helps artists build the careers that they dream of. I really hope that this podcast inspires you in some way. Thanks for tuning in.
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I have a guest
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on the show today, and I am utterly flabbergasted that you responded to my email. Tom Fontana, but I'm so delighted. And I'll give a little bit of intro so that people know who you are.
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Unknown
Tom Fontana is a writer, a showrunner, a producer. He's credited by many people as one of the most influential forces in television.
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So, he basically is the grandfather of prestige television.
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He wrote and produced shows
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including Saint Elsewhere,
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Homicide Life on the Street
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as the Philanthropist, copper, and Borgia.
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He has three Emmys.
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He has four Peabody, three WGA Awards for television critics Association Awards,
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the Cable Ace Award, the Humanitas Prize. He's also currently president of the WGA East. Did I get all that, Tom?
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Unknown
That sounds about right. Yeah. Yeah.
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Unknown
Incredible.
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He also teaches and mentors screenwriters, which is lucky for me because if he wasn't that kind of very kind of generous person,
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he would never have agreed to come on the show. So,
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when I was a starving playwright.
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Somebody took pity on me and mentored me, so I'm just.
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I'm just giving back what was given to me.
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Unknown
Amazing. And I guess my first question is,
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given your
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decades and decades of contribution to
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culture
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and entertainment and television, how in the heck have you been able to accomplish so much in one lifetime?
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I would say, blind luck and
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utter stupidity.
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I have been very blessed
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in the course of my career
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that,
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either opportunities presented themselves
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or I was able to,
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excite,
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people with,
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the power to
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allow me to produce the things I wanted to do.
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And in terms of stupidity, I've just always been too,
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stupid to know I shouldn't try to do the things that I thought.
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Made a lot of sense to me, but didn't always make
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sense to anybody until very quickly when
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I had the idea to do, a show about a prison.
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I,
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pitched it to
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the broadcast networks, NBC, ABC, CBS,
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and,
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and they all looked at me like I had three heads.
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And luck would have it
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that HBO was looking for its first drama series.
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And a friend of mine found that out and said, there's somebody stupid enough to do. Your principal and
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I flew out to LA, and I pitched it, and they said, let's do it. So,
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like I said,
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was too stupid to think
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I was so stupid. I thought everyone would want my prison show.
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And I was lucky
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that somebody actually ended up wanting it.
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And was that the first time that you pitched a TV show?
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I had been, working.
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Unknown
Well, it's a little complicated, but,
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homicide, which was based on David Simon's brilliant nonfiction book, homicide A year in the Killing Streets.
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Barry Levinson had bought,
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the rights, and NBC wanted him to develop
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a,
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a cop show based on.
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And the book, though none of them had actually read it.
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and so I was the one who went over to NBC because I knew them all from Saint Elsewhere,
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to pitch the show.
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Paul and Tennessee wrote the first episode.
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And so,
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what I say complicated. I mean,
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I was pitching David Simon's book,
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so Paul, in turn, also could write the pilot,
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and anyway, it worked.
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Thank God.
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You have my dream job of TV creator and showrunner.
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Can you
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explain to some of the folks in my audience, which is a lot of actors
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who don't understand what a showrunner does, can you explain what a showrunner does? And maybe if that's changed from the 80s,
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how it's changed?
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The only way it's changed is it's gotten harder.
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But,
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but,
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The thing about being a showrunner is you almost have to have two
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personalities. It's kind of a Jekyll Hyde thing.
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On one hand,
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you have to be this creative force with a vision.
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This is the
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show we're going to make.
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and you have to galvanize all of the creative juices of the other writers, the actors, the directors,
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designers.
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And then there is this other head of,
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business
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where you have to
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keep an eye on the budget, you have to negotiate the budget, you have to keep your eye on the budget.
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And,
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and so you have to know what
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everything costs.
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Lumber. Oh, the price of lumber
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just
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went up because
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of whatever reasons.
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And
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suddenly the the budget you had last week
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is not it's not as accurate as it needs to be.
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So I'm constantly, every week getting reports from the line producer
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telling me where we are financially.
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The thing is,
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I never expected to be in that job. I'm just in my mind first and foremost. I'm a writer and
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and I don't want to be bothered with all those details, but
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I've had to learn,
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and I've had to
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understand that the money,
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Bruce Paltrow, who was my mentor,
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said
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you have to, treat the money as it's yours as if it was yours.
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Unknown
Yeah.
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And
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that
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very
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wisely made me
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think this is how I have to approach that part of the job.
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And I think a lot of writers don't have the
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interest in doing both. They want to be. Oh, yes. And we're going to
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we're going to do a scene in the middle of a volcano while it's erupting.
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And, the helicopters will be flying in and there'll be buzzards and,
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and a giant and the and the pope, you know,
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and you go like. Yeah, okay. But what's it going to cost you know,
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and,
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but Bruce was a very good teacher. He taught me how to do it. Wow. I can really relate to that
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because as a writer director, I've basically only produced my own material for the past ten years.
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Unknown
Wow. So less of a gun for hire and more of a psychopath. But as a result, I really know how to stretch a dollar like, my God. So I think that's so smart of just starting to get in the habit of thinking that every dollar that has to be spent is your own dollar,
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Unknown
even if it's not.
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Unknown
Yeah. And while it's usually definitely not in my case, because
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there's usually a studio involved in a network involved,
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but if you go over budget too many times
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and
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they think, oh, well,
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the we're not getting the kinds of response that makes the show worth spending this kind of money.
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Unknown
know, I was trained by the Jesuits, so I'm very,
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we're going to shoot on time.
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We're going to shoot on budget.
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So disciplined
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and well disciplined, but also coming out of the fact that the kinds of material that I want to do,
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it's not typical.
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Unknown
You know what I mean? You know, if I said, oh, I want to do CSI Pittsburgh,
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Unknown
well, that would be they go, oh, okay. And
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this was for a lot of CSI costs.
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Unknown
But when you say, I want to do a show
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set in the Renaissance,
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that they're, they're like, well, oh, that's going to court. You don't need horses. And,
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and gowns and, you know, so you have to
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stay close to the budget
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in order
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to make them not feel like they're
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making a mistake by producing the show.
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Unknown
Yeah. You're already taking a creative risk. You can't ask them to take too much of a financial risk. Right? The same time
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your body of work, which is one of the more extraordinary bodies of work, I think, for a single person in television,
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deals with some pretty extraordinary material. So,
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man, after my own heart, a lot of violence, a lot of sex,
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extremities of human nature.
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Did you have an intense childhood or do you just have an intense imagination? I did not have an intense childhood. I actually had a fairly,
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we went from being poor to being middle class over the course of,
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I don't know, a decade.
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But,
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The kids were never meant to feel,
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lesser than
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anyone else.
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And so, I think,
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there's a part of me that thinks, yes, there is probably
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some deep seated trauma that I'm trying to work out,
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but I'm afraid that if I figured that out, I would never write again.
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So I'm just going to let it
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be what it is and, and keep going till, till I drop.
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Tennessee Williams said you either lead an extraordinary life or you write an extraordinary life. I don't know if I agree with that, but
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don't know if I,
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do either. But,
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it to a certain extent,
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I think for me, what I write is
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the human condition, which is something I have experienced over the course of my life.
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and. Yes. Okay.
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This character is in a homicide unit, and this character's in
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a prison,
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but he or she is still a human,
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and has needs and has confusions and has loves and
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and hates. And so
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I what I find myself is,
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is creating a character
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and then putting them in a place that has obstacles.
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You know what I mean?
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So that they're challenged
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either their skills are challenged or their beliefs are challenged, or they are physically challenged.
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Unknown
Yep.
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How do you decide what to focus on when you're taking on a new project?
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Or you know, you have so many ideas like how do you pick one?
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If
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someone's paying me, that's the one. Yeah. If no one's paying me, then, the one with the loudest voice. You know what I mean? Because we have these characters that are going like,
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hey, hey, hey, hey, pay attention to me. Don't pay attention to him.
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I'm the one you should be writing about.
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And so I've learned to listen to those voices,
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if only just to get them out of my head and on a piece of paper.
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Unknown
Yeah. For sure.
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How do they speak to you? Just kind of the fringe of your consciousness or in dreams or when you sit down to put pen to paper?
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Unknown
They it's usually over the course of a day,
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I will get a notion of some kind,
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something that a character would do or say
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or feel. And then I go, okay, I don't know what that is, but it's over here now, and it's coming over here, and there's another one over here. So
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Unknown
I don't know, I, I do do this thing
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when I am writing a specific project.
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I do do this thing which I've developed over the course of my writing career, which is, just for I go to bed.
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I think about
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the first scene I have to write
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the morning.
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I don't think about it a lot because then I won't go to sleep at all.
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Unknown
But I just go, oh yeah, the thing with the banana and,
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Unknown
And the goat. Yeah, I have to write that scene tomorrow,
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and I'll go to bed and I'll go to sleep.
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Unknown
And
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a lot of times,
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the last dream I have
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in the morning is the beginning of that scene. Which means I have to get up out of bed very quickly and get to my desk very quickly before I forget,
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Unknown
because we all forget.
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Our dreams are some parts of the dreams.
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so a lot of times it is a dream.
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Unknown
I love that and I
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teach as well, and I tell screenwriters and makers,
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of film and TV that the subconscious is just doing way much more of a heavy lift than the conscious brain.
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So if you can just
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do that trick of falling asleep on it,
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or waking up on it or showering on it, the subconscious will come forward and
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be just
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much better at the job than the conscious brain usually. Yeah, I have so many wet pieces of paper from ideas I got during the shower and while showering.
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Unknown
Totally.
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Unknown
You just got elected president of the WGA East?
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Unknown
Yes I did, what's that like? That's. Congratulations. Yeah, well, we'll see if it's congratulations or condolences.
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Unknown
It's well,
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this is very important.
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Unknown
Next two years for the guild. Yeah.
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For
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both guilds, the Writers Guild West and the Writers Guild
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and for the industry. We're in such a contraction
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in terms of film, television and streaming.
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That a lot of writers are out of work.
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We have our broadcast news members
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who are
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getting
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leaned on by these billionaires who are buying
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the companies, CBS
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news specifically this week. Yeah.
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Unknown
And we have our online media,
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members
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Unknown
who are also being, you know,
00:14:41:01 - 00:14:42:16
Unknown
their companies are being
00:14:43:01 - 00:14:45:09
Unknown
sold and then there are layoffs
00:14:45:09 - 00:14:46:01
Unknown
so
00:14:46:01 - 00:14:48:17
Unknown
it's a tough time for everybody.
00:14:48:17 - 00:14:51:17
Unknown
Not that there haven't been tough times in the past,
00:14:52:02 - 00:14:52:20
Unknown
but
00:14:52:20 - 00:14:55:10
Unknown
it's something we really have to concentrate on.
00:14:55:10 - 00:14:56:15
Unknown
on to,
00:14:56:15 - 00:14:58:06
Unknown
to help our members. I mean, we
00:14:58:06 - 00:15:01:14
Unknown
we're not a hiring hall like a regular union. We don't.
00:15:01:24 - 00:15:06:09
Unknown
can't sit in the lobby and wait for, posting of a job.
00:15:06:19 - 00:15:08:16
Unknown
But we can,
00:15:08:16 - 00:15:09:17
Unknown
make the
00:15:09:17 - 00:15:11:09
Unknown
contracts fair.
00:15:11:19 - 00:15:15:19
Unknown
We can deal. Which one of the things we're dealing with, obviously, now is,
00:15:15:19 - 00:15:16:13
Unknown
I,
00:15:17:13 - 00:15:18:20
Unknown
which, you know,
00:15:18:20 - 00:15:20:12
Unknown
a lot of writers are saying we,
00:15:20:12 - 00:15:21:12
Unknown
I hate it,
00:15:21:12 - 00:15:22:20
Unknown
I, I'm no fan of it,
00:15:23:05 - 00:15:27:21
Unknown
but I think where we would be wise to try to tame it as opposed to
00:15:28:12 - 00:15:30:24
Unknown
build barricades to keep it out.
00:15:30:24 - 00:15:33:12
Unknown
We're not going to be able to keep it out.
00:15:34:11 - 00:15:41:19
Unknown
You know, and then there's other things. YouTube is suddenly a phenomenon because it's getting more views than Netflix.
00:15:42:00 - 00:15:47:09
Unknown
yet they're basically ripping off all the creative people because they don't pay us anything for.
00:15:47:17 - 00:15:48:01
Unknown
Yeah,
00:15:48:01 - 00:15:51:04
Unknown
our material. I have TV shows on YouTube
00:15:51:14 - 00:15:53:19
Unknown
I've never seen a dime of before.
00:15:53:19 - 00:15:56:02
Unknown
And, you know, all the late night writers
00:15:56:12 - 00:16:02:05
Unknown
because a lot of people like me don't stay up till 1130 to watch,
00:16:02:05 - 00:16:03:00
Unknown
Colbert
00:16:03:00 - 00:16:04:06
Unknown
or Seth Meyers.
00:16:04:16 - 00:16:12:05
Unknown
I watch them all on YouTube and, before I go to bed. So. So there's a lot of issues out there.
00:16:12:15 - 00:16:13:07
Unknown
And,
00:16:13:07 - 00:16:18:16
Unknown
you know, I'd be wrong to neglect free speech, which is, which is clearly,
00:16:19:01 - 00:16:21:09
Unknown
being threatened
00:16:21:09 - 00:16:23:01
Unknown
on so many different levels.
00:16:23:11 - 00:16:24:04
Unknown
So,
00:16:24:04 - 00:16:24:19
Unknown
yeah, it's
00:16:24:19 - 00:16:28:03
Unknown
the best of times. It is the worst of times. And,
00:16:28:13 - 00:16:33:12
Unknown
I find myself being at the president of, of the guild.
00:16:34:07 - 00:16:42:15
Unknown
They are lucky to have such a mind at the helm right now. And, I mean, I guess I want to thank you for your service.
00:16:42:17 - 00:16:43:24
Unknown
Well, I appreciate that.
00:16:43:24 - 00:16:45:18
Unknown
my attitude is,
00:16:45:23 - 00:16:48:19
Unknown
it's a union and we are all in it together.
00:16:49:04 - 00:16:57:24
Unknown
I alone, unlike a certain man who claimed he could do it alone, I alone cannot do it. Yeah.
00:16:58:09 - 00:17:02:17
Unknown
so. And this is really all about solidarity. This is about
00:17:03:12 - 00:17:05:18
Unknown
the union members coming together
00:17:06:03 - 00:17:12:05
Unknown
East and West with Sag-Aftra, with the DGA, with the Producers Guild,
00:17:12:18 - 00:17:15:10
Unknown
with Gavin Newsom, he with Gavin Newsom.
00:17:15:10 - 00:17:16:22
Unknown
Yeah. And you know,
00:17:16:22 - 00:17:21:00
Unknown
every, every governor who we every legislature that we can
00:17:21:00 - 00:17:22:11
Unknown
make understand
00:17:22:21 - 00:17:27:12
Unknown
value not only just the value of what we do, but the value of the people in our union.
00:17:27:22 - 00:17:32:20
Unknown
Because most of the people in the Writers Guild East are,
00:17:32:20 - 00:17:37:21
Unknown
you know, people with families and mortgages or rents or,
00:17:37:21 - 00:17:40:09
Unknown
school tuitions and stuff.
00:17:40:11 - 00:17:41:01
Unknown
They're not
00:17:41:01 - 00:17:47:06
Unknown
Tom cruise or some, you know, they're not dancing around, flying off to,
00:17:48:01 - 00:18:00:23
Unknown
a BSA or someplace. Yeah, yeah. Where do people go who have free time? I've. It's been so many years since I, I go to a bar, but that's just me.
00:18:01:18 - 00:18:02:19
Unknown
So.
00:18:02:19 - 00:18:05:00
Unknown
Yeah. What is your day to day like?
00:18:05:00 - 00:18:20:22
Unknown
I mean, for someone who is so extraordinarily accomplished. Like what? What's a day in the life of of Tom Fontana? Well, I get up at 5 a.m., which I have been doing every day since I was roughly 16 years old to write.
00:18:21:07 - 00:18:24:04
Unknown
And I'll tell you very quickly, when I was 16,
00:18:24:14 - 00:18:25:21
Unknown
my parents,
00:18:25:21 - 00:18:29:04
Unknown
connived to get me into the Jesuit high school that I went to.
00:18:29:14 - 00:18:33:19
Unknown
They had four other kids going to school, so they couldn't really afford
00:18:33:19 - 00:18:35:02
Unknown
for me to go there.
00:18:35:12 - 00:18:37:13
Unknown
So my father convinced the
00:18:37:13 - 00:18:39:05
Unknown
priests to let me
00:18:39:15 - 00:18:41:22
Unknown
work as part of my
00:18:41:22 - 00:18:42:14
Unknown
tuition.
00:18:42:24 - 00:18:43:05
Unknown
So
00:18:43:05 - 00:18:44:20
Unknown
I worked in the kitchen,
00:18:45:04 - 00:18:47:09
Unknown
Classes started around 845.
00:18:47:11 - 00:18:51:02
Unknown
and probably the kitchen was open to the students at eight.
00:18:51:02 - 00:18:51:18
Unknown
And
00:18:52:00 - 00:18:53:21
Unknown
so I had to get there at seven
00:18:53:21 - 00:18:55:04
Unknown
to help
00:18:55:04 - 00:18:56:05
Unknown
cooks
00:18:56:05 - 00:18:58:03
Unknown
get the food together.
00:18:58:03 - 00:18:59:04
Unknown
And
00:18:59:04 - 00:19:06:03
Unknown
so I would get up at five to write for an hour, so then I could get dressed and walk to school and,
00:19:06:13 - 00:19:11:23
Unknown
work in the kitchen. So which pissed off my two older brothers because we shared a room
00:19:12:13 - 00:19:16:01
Unknown
and I would get up at five and turn on the light and they would throw things at me.
00:19:16:01 - 00:19:17:20
Unknown
And then because I was waking them up.
00:19:18:05 - 00:19:22:03
Unknown
Anyway, that's how I started getting up at 5 a.m.
00:19:22:13 - 00:19:31:12
Unknown
and I've just maintained it. Even when I became the boss, I thought, well, you don't have to get up at five anymore. You're the boss. And I was like, now I
00:19:32:07 - 00:19:39:11
Unknown
it's really a blessed time to write five and, you know, check out forget about four.
00:19:39:13 - 00:19:41:08
Unknown
Yeah. Before his medical practice.
00:19:41:17 - 00:19:47:04
Unknown
Yeah. But that's so interesting because there you were,
00:19:47:04 - 00:19:50:07
Unknown
basically a child going to school
00:19:50:07 - 00:19:53:01
Unknown
and participating as,
00:19:53:01 - 00:19:55:16
Unknown
a member of this institution,
00:19:55:16 - 00:19:57:03
Unknown
shoulder to shoulder with any,
00:19:57:03 - 00:20:00:01
Unknown
the other students. And then you were simultaneously
00:20:00:21 - 00:20:02:04
Unknown
working and
00:20:02:04 - 00:20:09:07
Unknown
literally, like, giving the food to feed all of these other students. So you were working for the school, but also
00:20:09:17 - 00:20:10:07
Unknown
one of
00:20:10:07 - 00:20:11:11
Unknown
the members of the school.
00:20:11:11 - 00:20:13:04
Unknown
And I think that that metaphor
00:20:13:13 - 00:20:14:18
Unknown
of being
00:20:14:18 - 00:20:20:05
Unknown
like a contributing laborer and also someone who is
00:20:20:05 - 00:20:23:02
Unknown
kind of more of a managerial
00:20:23:02 - 00:20:23:24
Unknown
role, is
00:20:23:24 - 00:20:25:09
Unknown
that's like carried through to
00:20:25:09 - 00:20:28:10
Unknown
seemingly every other thing that you've ever done. Well,
00:20:28:10 - 00:20:32:17
Unknown
the only thing is, I wasn't managerial in my job at the school. I
00:20:32:17 - 00:20:35:02
Unknown
was the I was the busboy.
00:20:35:02 - 00:20:37:10
Unknown
I was the time stir this.
00:20:37:10 - 00:20:38:24
Unknown
I think that's cool. I mean,
00:20:38:24 - 00:20:39:17
Unknown
serving
00:20:39:17 - 00:20:42:02
Unknown
in the cafeteria, like, literally feeding
00:20:42:09 - 00:20:42:18
Unknown
your
00:20:42:18 - 00:20:46:13
Unknown
peers. Yeah, well, that's a bad ass. A lot of them.
00:20:46:13 - 00:20:51:04
Unknown
of them weren't my peers. They were a lot richer than I was. It was a school. I mean, it
00:20:51:04 - 00:20:52:15
Unknown
it was an expensive school.
00:20:52:15 - 00:20:53:00
Unknown
And,
00:20:53:09 - 00:20:54:01
Unknown
but they were
00:20:54:01 - 00:20:54:12
Unknown
listen,
00:20:54:12 - 00:20:58:17
Unknown
don't want to make it sound like I was, Oliver Twist.
00:20:58:17 - 00:21:02:01
Unknown
was it's a great school, and I had great,
00:21:02:01 - 00:21:03:13
Unknown
classmates
00:21:03:23 - 00:21:10:09
Unknown
and you use the word discipline. I mean, that's what I learned. Yeah. Was the discipline, like. Okay,
00:21:10:19 - 00:21:11:17
Unknown
you know,
00:21:11:17 - 00:21:14:06
Unknown
if you're going to do the thing you love,
00:21:14:06 - 00:21:15:24
Unknown
how do you make that happen?
00:21:16:03 - 00:21:27:11
Unknown
every day. Yeah. You know, a devotional practice. Yes. Yeah. In fact, when I was broke in and then years later, living in New York as a
00:21:27:11 - 00:21:28:13
Unknown
failed playwright,
00:21:28:23 - 00:21:32:14
Unknown
I was like, really? I was sleeping on people's couches.
00:21:32:14 - 00:21:33:19
Unknown
People were so generous.
00:21:34:04 - 00:21:35:24
Unknown
And I went into,
00:21:35:24 - 00:21:40:13
Unknown
a church, and I knelt down and I said, God, if you could just
00:21:40:23 - 00:21:43:03
Unknown
let me be paid
00:21:43:03 - 00:21:45:13
Unknown
to be a writer,
00:21:45:13 - 00:21:50:07
Unknown
I promise I will write every day of my life for the rest of my life.
00:21:50:11 - 00:21:51:07
Unknown
Wow.
00:21:51:07 - 00:21:52:13
Unknown
And,
00:21:52:13 - 00:22:02:22
Unknown
the only thing I can tell you is don't make deals with God, because how do I get out of this? You know, and I'm saying, yeah, yeah,
00:22:02:22 - 00:22:06:19
Unknown
I can't renegotiate this. Like, yeah, no, no, no. Okay. Now
00:22:07:02 - 00:22:13:16
Unknown
how about if it's every Thursday. Yeah. No. Yeah. We don't want to know what happens if you renege on that deal.
00:22:13:21 - 00:22:18:00
Unknown
Yeah. If suddenly lightning would smite me.
00:22:18:00 - 00:22:29:18
Unknown
yeah. I heard that you don't use a computer and that you write, longhand on legal pads, etc.. I absolutely write a longhand on legal pads. Yeah. That's incredible.
00:22:29:18 - 00:22:38:03
Unknown
Why do you do that? I never learned to type. But I did learn to write, so it felt like.
00:22:38:07 - 00:22:39:08
Unknown
will say this
00:22:39:08 - 00:22:42:20
Unknown
there is something incredibly sensual
00:22:42:20 - 00:22:45:02
Unknown
about having
00:22:45:02 - 00:22:52:11
Unknown
a pen in your hand and a yellow piece of paper. It's your heart. It's your body, it's your soul.
00:22:53:06 - 00:22:56:03
Unknown
All kind of touching and
00:22:56:13 - 00:22:57:24
Unknown
communicating.
00:22:57:24 - 00:23:00:04
Unknown
And the few times that I tried
00:23:00:04 - 00:23:01:03
Unknown
to write
00:23:01:03 - 00:23:02:03
Unknown
on a computer,
00:23:02:13 - 00:23:05:13
Unknown
I felt very distant from the writing.
00:23:05:13 - 00:23:07:01
Unknown
I felt like, you know,
00:23:07:11 - 00:23:12:20
Unknown
and plus I kept deleting by mistake, which I mean,
00:23:12:20 - 00:23:14:16
Unknown
kind of there is a joy to
00:23:14:16 - 00:23:32:06
Unknown
reading a page that you've written and knowing it's complete crap and crumbling it up and throwing it with all your might across the room, it's very satisfying. Whereas if I was throwing a computer every time I wrote shit,
00:23:32:16 - 00:23:35:22
Unknown
there'd be a lot of broken hooters.
00:23:35:24 - 00:23:37:08
Unknown
I.
00:23:37:08 - 00:23:44:05
Unknown
Yeah, who is that? That producer that got done for throwing computers. Not Harvey Weinstein, the other one.
00:23:44:05 - 00:23:48:07
Unknown
Oh, Scott Rudin. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you've Scott Rudin.
00:23:48:17 - 00:23:51:04
Unknown
Yeah. God help me. No.
00:23:51:04 - 00:23:55:17
Unknown
Yeah, you make me think of the
00:23:55:17 - 00:24:03:12
Unknown
the 54% of Americans who do not read above a sixth grade level.
00:24:03:12 - 00:24:09:04
Unknown
And how much higher that number is going to be when ChatGPT is
00:24:09:04 - 00:24:10:06
Unknown
ubiquitous.
00:24:10:06 - 00:24:10:20
Unknown
Yeah,
00:24:10:20 - 00:24:15:18
Unknown
another group that I'm involved with which is attached to the Writers Guild East
00:24:16:03 - 00:24:18:20
Unknown
is a group called the Writers Guild Initiative.
00:24:18:20 - 00:24:25:22
Unknown
And one of the things we do is encourage reading,
00:24:26:07 - 00:24:27:23
Unknown
because I read this
00:24:27:23 - 00:24:29:13
Unknown
study that said,
00:24:29:13 - 00:24:37:07
Unknown
if a, young man or woman stops reading in high school, they never read again.
00:24:38:09 - 00:24:40:07
Unknown
so we we've been developing,
00:24:40:14 - 00:24:43:01
Unknown
you know, we have an ongoing programs to,
00:24:43:11 - 00:24:44:22
Unknown
into engage,
00:24:44:22 - 00:24:46:01
Unknown
students,
00:24:46:01 - 00:24:48:18
Unknown
in high school with the love of
00:24:48:18 - 00:24:51:02
Unknown
reading. I mean, how successful
00:24:51:02 - 00:24:51:12
Unknown
we are.
00:24:51:12 - 00:24:54:04
Unknown
I don't really know, because it's not the kind of thing we then
00:24:54:20 - 00:24:57:18
Unknown
call them and say. So you're still reading?
00:24:57:20 - 00:25:00:11
Unknown
But there's a part of us that thinks,
00:25:00:11 - 00:25:06:15
Unknown
we can just turn on a light. Maybe they'll keep the light on. That's beautiful.
00:25:06:15 - 00:25:08:18
Unknown
You do so much
00:25:08:18 - 00:25:11:01
Unknown
mentorship and education and just
00:25:11:01 - 00:25:13:16
Unknown
helping of people and artists.
00:25:13:16 - 00:25:17:12
Unknown
What do you find satisfying about it and
00:25:17:12 - 00:25:20:07
Unknown
what's like an example of somebody
00:25:20:07 - 00:25:25:05
Unknown
that you really like to mentor, like what are the traits in somebody or a young writer that you appreciate?
00:25:26:06 - 00:25:28:06
Unknown
Well, in terms of writers,
00:25:28:22 - 00:25:31:03
Unknown
I love
00:25:31:03 - 00:25:35:11
Unknown
individual voices. I love the uniqueness
00:25:35:11 - 00:25:42:06
Unknown
there are certain showrunners who hire writers wanting them to sound exactly like them,
00:25:42:16 - 00:25:45:19
Unknown
and I'm not being critical of that. That's
00:25:45:19 - 00:25:47:19
Unknown
way of doing a television show
00:25:48:04 - 00:26:00:12
Unknown
for me. I think of it as an orchestra, and I play the tuba, and I can play the tuba pretty well, but I can't play a violin,
00:26:00:22 - 00:26:03:16
Unknown
and I need somebody to play the violin.
00:26:03:23 - 00:26:05:02
Unknown
And so
00:26:05:02 - 00:26:05:19
Unknown
one of the
00:26:05:19 - 00:26:06:09
Unknown
other
00:26:06:09 - 00:26:07:20
Unknown
jobs as a showrunner,
00:26:08:05 - 00:26:10:15
Unknown
is to put together a team of writers,
00:26:10:15 - 00:26:16:23
Unknown
who each are brilliant and in their own kind of writing.
00:26:17:01 - 00:26:20:04
Unknown
And my job then becomes to take their work
00:26:20:04 - 00:26:22:17
Unknown
and shape it into
00:26:22:17 - 00:26:25:16
Unknown
a TV series, because it has to
00:26:25:16 - 00:26:27:02
Unknown
fit a kind of,
00:26:27:02 - 00:26:28:04
Unknown
pattern.
00:26:28:06 - 00:26:28:08
Unknown
Yeah.
00:26:28:08 - 00:26:31:02
Unknown
Though if you look at some of the shows I've done, like
00:26:31:12 - 00:26:32:21
Unknown
homicide,
00:26:32:21 - 00:26:40:00
Unknown
you can see that we basically we're like, well, we don't have to do the same format every week.
00:26:40:10 - 00:26:44:12
Unknown
You know, sometimes the body is at the beginning of the show, and
00:26:44:22 - 00:26:49:01
Unknown
sometimes it's at the middle of the show, and sometimes there's no body at all.
00:26:49:11 - 00:26:54:01
Unknown
You know, when you take a show like, Jimmy Yoshimura wrote an episode
00:26:54:11 - 00:26:57:07
Unknown
called The Subway, in which,
00:26:57:07 - 00:27:00:24
Unknown
man, he's waiting to go to work, and a man he falls in,
00:27:00:24 - 00:27:03:08
Unknown
between the track and the subway car
00:27:03:18 - 00:27:09:21
Unknown
and he has in real life somebody that that happens who has about 45 minutes to live.
00:27:09:21 - 00:27:14:02
Unknown
And so he wrote this brilliant episode about
00:27:14:02 - 00:27:16:13
Unknown
Andre Brewer's character
00:27:16:13 - 00:27:18:04
Unknown
basically starting out
00:27:18:04 - 00:27:20:24
Unknown
trying to figure out who pushed him, interviewing
00:27:20:24 - 00:27:23:05
Unknown
the victim, the murder victim,
00:27:23:05 - 00:27:27:05
Unknown
and eventually comes to realize that that's not his job,
00:27:27:05 - 00:27:34:07
Unknown
detective's job at that point is to help this man die. Well, and this
00:27:34:07 - 00:27:39:10
Unknown
I would say 90% of the episode was in the subway,
00:27:39:10 - 00:27:45:21
Unknown
and we only went out every once in a while because two of the other detectives were looking for the
00:27:46:02 - 00:27:47:04
Unknown
girlfriend.
00:27:48:00 - 00:27:54:20
Unknown
But that is not that's not a standard format for an episode of a TV show,
00:27:55:05 - 00:27:59:05
Unknown
that's the kind of things we would do on a regular basis, because
00:27:59:05 - 00:28:11:02
Unknown
it was a more interesting way to tell the story than if we had just, you know, bum bum. Yeah, you know, was that the first time that procedurals had,
00:28:11:02 - 00:28:12:04
Unknown
subverted
00:28:12:04 - 00:28:12:23
Unknown
their
00:28:12:23 - 00:28:13:18
Unknown
format?
00:28:13:23 - 00:28:22:01
Unknown
I, you know, I'm not enough of a scholar of television to be able to answer that. I think back in the day,
00:28:22:11 - 00:28:23:07
Unknown
shows like,
00:28:23:17 - 00:28:28:00
Unknown
Naked City would do that kind of thing, but,
00:28:28:00 - 00:28:28:14
Unknown
but
00:28:28:14 - 00:28:30:04
Unknown
I can't really speak to it. It,
00:28:30:04 - 00:28:35:01
Unknown
I guess in a funny kind of way, we actually never thought of ourselves as a procedural.
00:28:35:08 - 00:28:37:14
Unknown
We always thought of us as this sloppy,
00:28:37:24 - 00:28:41:04
Unknown
yes, sloppy drama that, you know,
00:28:41:20 - 00:28:45:03
Unknown
it was sloppy because life is sloppy. And
00:28:45:03 - 00:28:46:13
Unknown
we were like, we can't
00:28:46:13 - 00:28:47:20
Unknown
tidy it all up
00:28:48:05 - 00:28:56:14
Unknown
because it's a television show that aren't those just words to live by. Wow.
00:28:56:14 - 00:29:01:12
Unknown
And are you working on anything coming up?
00:29:01:14 - 00:29:08:12
Unknown
I am, but I'm not going to speak of it. We just know to to look out for it and watch it when it comes out.
00:29:08:22 - 00:29:11:17
Unknown
because it sounds like over the whole course of your
00:29:11:17 - 00:29:13:12
Unknown
long, beautiful career,
00:29:13:22 - 00:29:23:21
Unknown
the writing has been good enough and undeniable enough that networks have been willing to take chances on you.
00:29:23:21 - 00:29:25:02
Unknown
You stand by that.
00:29:25:02 - 00:29:25:04
Unknown
Do
00:29:25:04 - 00:29:35:13
Unknown
you recommend that as a strategy for writers? Well, listen, it depends why you want to be a writer. If you want to make a zillion dollars on a Jaguar,
00:29:35:23 - 00:29:37:03
Unknown
then no, no,
00:29:37:03 - 00:29:38:24
Unknown
then write commercial
00:29:38:24 - 00:29:39:22
Unknown
hits.
00:29:39:22 - 00:29:43:05
Unknown
there's no sin in that. That's just it. That's just a choice.
00:29:43:05 - 00:29:44:15
Unknown
And then there's
00:29:44:15 - 00:29:48:03
Unknown
stupid people like me who just think, oh, I should just.
00:29:48:23 - 00:29:51:18
Unknown
I really that's kind of weird. I got to write about that,
00:29:51:18 - 00:29:53:04
Unknown
So
00:29:53:04 - 00:29:57:13
Unknown
I don't know. There is no right or wrong. There's just your life is just your choice
00:29:57:23 - 00:29:58:14
Unknown
of how to
00:29:58:14 - 00:30:04:19
Unknown
be a writer. I think the key is to be as honest in your writing as you can be,
00:30:05:04 - 00:30:08:06
Unknown
regardless of of the kind of thing you're writing.
00:30:08:06 - 00:30:11:01
Unknown
Can CSI Pittsburgh be
00:30:11:01 - 00:30:14:04
Unknown
about the human condition? Yes.
00:30:14:04 - 00:30:15:12
Unknown
what level of
00:30:16:07 - 00:30:28:16
Unknown
complexity. Where are you going to are you going to give it. Yeah. There isn't a there actually isn't a CSI Pittsburgh there. I keep saying it like there is, but I don't think there is.
00:30:28:16 - 00:30:34:21
Unknown
maybe I'll pitch that next. I forgot that Pittsburgh existed until you mentioned it actually.
00:30:34:23 - 00:30:36:00
Unknown
But,
00:30:36:00 - 00:30:37:03
Unknown
yeah.
00:30:37:03 - 00:30:38:06
Unknown
So
00:30:38:06 - 00:30:44:05
Unknown
it seems like you write a lot about the world around you and people and things that you
00:30:44:05 - 00:30:45:08
Unknown
known and, I mean,
00:30:45:08 - 00:30:52:03
Unknown
is there a lot of research that goes in? How about I, I do tons and tons of research. I love, I love research, I,
00:30:52:13 - 00:30:55:14
Unknown
I'm a kind of failed historian.
00:30:55:16 - 00:30:56:03
Unknown
That's,
00:30:56:03 - 00:30:56:20
Unknown
thing, but,
00:30:57:08 - 00:30:58:12
Unknown
yeah, I love
00:30:58:12 - 00:30:59:17
Unknown
the research because you always
00:30:59:17 - 00:31:09:16
Unknown
find stuff that you weren't looking for that is more interesting than what you were looking for. How do you research, though, without, you know, being not so tech savvy like
00:31:09:16 - 00:31:11:05
Unknown
Is it just the long, hard way?
00:31:11:08 - 00:31:12:08
Unknown
I have these,
00:31:12:08 - 00:31:20:19
Unknown
things called books. Whoa. Yeah, I know, I know, it's shocking, but I that's what I use, I use books.
00:31:20:19 - 00:31:31:14
Unknown
Wow. I just think you're the coolest. I hate the research. Personally, as a writer, I don't hate it. I just,
00:31:31:24 - 00:31:36:10
Unknown
I heard there's two kinds of writers. There's those that would rather write about anyone but themselves.
00:31:36:10 - 00:31:39:22
Unknown
And then there's people who only write about themselves in one form or another.
00:31:40:07 - 00:31:42:03
Unknown
So I'm that latter category.
00:31:42:13 - 00:31:49:10
Unknown
So my research is kind of unearthing of my own experiences and then putting them into other people's bodies.
00:31:49:17 - 00:31:51:23
Unknown
But I guess that is,
00:31:51:23 - 00:31:54:04
Unknown
extraordinary. That's to me, that's
00:31:54:04 - 00:31:55:02
Unknown
that's a gift.
00:31:55:12 - 00:32:00:16
Unknown
You know, I would say I write about parts of me, but I also write about
00:32:01:01 - 00:32:05:03
Unknown
other people that I've experienced over the course of my life.
00:32:05:24 - 00:32:09:04
Unknown
Yeah. Well, you have through it three Emmys, so maybe I should try it your way.
00:32:11:24 - 00:32:20:23
Unknown
Well, again, who knows what's luck? And what's, you know, the whole thing about awards is, is that when I was nominated the first time,
00:32:21:08 - 00:32:24:21
Unknown
I was like, oh, my God, and I won. And I was like, oh my God, oh my God.
00:32:24:21 - 00:32:26:05
Unknown
This is oh my God.
00:32:26:15 - 00:32:28:03
Unknown
And then I was like,
00:32:28:03 - 00:32:32:00
Unknown
what does it actually mean? It doesn't really mean.
00:32:32:20 - 00:32:35:11
Unknown
It doesn't really mean I'm the best
00:32:35:11 - 00:32:36:10
Unknown
writer
00:32:36:10 - 00:32:41:20
Unknown
and I'm the best writer this year, but next year I won't be the best writer. I mean, you
00:32:42:05 - 00:32:50:12
Unknown
it's a false value system that if you buy into it too seriously, it owns you.
00:32:50:17 - 00:32:51:17
Unknown
And so,
00:32:51:17 - 00:32:52:16
Unknown
you know,
00:32:52:16 - 00:32:56:15
Unknown
I'm happy to have them. I won't give them back. But,
00:32:56:15 - 00:33:03:13
Unknown
they don't really define my career in my mind, you know. You know what I mean?
00:33:03:20 - 00:33:05:11
Unknown
Yeah. I mean, I have a.
00:33:05:14 - 00:33:14:16
Unknown
A picture of one on my desk, so I. I do know what you mean. And also, I stole one. Oh, no. No, I you everyone should have one. I'm.
00:33:14:16 - 00:33:15:08
Unknown
I'm,
00:33:15:08 - 00:33:16:11
Unknown
I just saying that
00:33:16:11 - 00:33:21:23
Unknown
in the wanting. The wanting ends up being more than the having.
00:33:21:23 - 00:33:23:19
Unknown
Yeah. And also live by the sword.
00:33:23:19 - 00:33:24:24
Unknown
Die by the sword
00:33:24:24 - 00:33:25:23
Unknown
and
00:33:25:23 - 00:33:30:17
Unknown
drink a lot of bourbon and drink more bourbon. And that's. Yeah, the heart of the thing. Oh,
00:33:30:17 - 00:33:35:16
Unknown
you know, one thing I wanted to bring up is that David Londra, who you met?
00:33:36:01 - 00:33:42:04
Unknown
He and I have started a Substack channel called Tom Fontana Presents.
00:33:42:04 - 00:33:48:17
Unknown
And what we're doing is what's great about Substack, which I didn't really have much experience with until now,
00:33:49:02 - 00:33:51:17
Unknown
is that you can do anything you want on it.
00:33:51:19 - 00:33:53:06
Unknown
Yeah. So,
00:33:53:06 - 00:33:54:10
Unknown
we started out
00:33:54:10 - 00:33:55:01
Unknown
with,
00:33:55:01 - 00:33:56:08
Unknown
a podcast,
00:33:56:18 - 00:34:01:08
Unknown
between Mark Ryder, who played Cesare Borgia on my series Borgia,
00:34:01:17 - 00:34:03:24
Unknown
and I talking about,
00:34:04:14 - 00:34:06:18
Unknown
what we were going to start presenting. And the
00:34:06:18 - 00:34:10:21
Unknown
the next thing we presented was an audio play that Marc did that I wrote.
00:34:11:06 - 00:34:14:17
Unknown
and then the next thing is a short story
00:34:15:02 - 00:34:20:05
Unknown
that is told from the point of view of the sister of Mark's character in the first piece.
00:34:20:15 - 00:34:22:18
Unknown
then there's a short film
00:34:22:18 - 00:34:24:00
Unknown
which has,
00:34:24:00 - 00:34:26:22
Unknown
Mark's character going through a kind of a
00:34:27:17 - 00:34:30:20
Unknown
Black Mirror, experience.
00:34:30:20 - 00:34:31:23
Unknown
So it's
00:34:31:23 - 00:34:36:18
Unknown
to me, it's very exciting. We've got a lot of things coming up that we planned. We're going to do a whole
00:34:37:03 - 00:34:40:12
Unknown
bunch of Twain stuff, Mark Twain stuff, and,
00:34:40:12 - 00:34:45:01
Unknown
and my friends who are incredibly talented and
00:34:45:11 - 00:34:51:04
Unknown
are I'm asking them to give me their short films or their poems or their
00:34:51:04 - 00:34:55:08
Unknown
whatever, and we're going to put it on this Tom Fontana presents.
00:34:55:08 - 00:34:56:18
Unknown
And,
00:34:57:03 - 00:35:06:12
Unknown
because right now there's so few people working. Yeah, that what we want to do is offer them a place
00:35:06:12 - 00:35:09:20
Unknown
to express themselves. And,
00:35:09:20 - 00:35:11:04
Unknown
we're also going to do,
00:35:11:04 - 00:35:12:07
Unknown
as I've implied,
00:35:12:07 - 00:35:13:11
Unknown
like to drink bourbon.
00:35:13:21 - 00:35:17:23
Unknown
We're going to do a podcast called On the Rocks, where I
00:35:17:23 - 00:35:21:23
Unknown
drink bourbon with a friend of mine, and we talk about life and,
00:35:22:08 - 00:35:22:20
Unknown
so,
00:35:23:03 - 00:35:24:11
Unknown
I just think
00:35:24:11 - 00:35:25:22
Unknown
given that you
00:35:25:22 - 00:35:27:07
Unknown
expressed
00:35:27:07 - 00:35:30:20
Unknown
an interest in my the kinds of thing I'm working on.
00:35:30:20 - 00:35:32:21
Unknown
That's something that I find very exciting because
00:35:32:21 - 00:35:35:21
Unknown
possibilities are endless. And so everyone should
00:35:35:21 - 00:35:47:22
Unknown
go like and subscribe to Tom Fontana Presents. Let's Substack and look out for On the Rocks. His podcast, where he basically just records hangouts with friends while they drink and drinks. Yeah. Yes.
00:35:48:07 - 00:35:50:03
Unknown
Very good. We love that.
00:35:50:03 - 00:35:51:02
Unknown
Do you have
00:35:51:02 - 00:35:56:19
Unknown
any parting words for aspiring filmmakers and writers, and especially given that
00:35:57:04 - 00:36:03:13
Unknown
the new generation is coming up, they don't necessarily see writing as a standalone thing.
00:36:03:13 - 00:36:05:14
Unknown
You know, there's mixed media and
00:36:05:14 - 00:36:11:13
Unknown
content creators, quote unquote. They're just doing everything, are doing it all. So any advice to this new generation?
00:36:11:13 - 00:36:15:07
Unknown
think you just said it. I think you have to you have to try everything
00:36:15:17 - 00:36:16:24
Unknown
and you know
00:36:16:24 - 00:36:19:03
Unknown
to bring up his name again, Mark Reiter.
00:36:19:11 - 00:36:23:01
Unknown
He and a bunch of friends of his from London have created,
00:36:23:11 - 00:36:24:15
Unknown
podcast series.
00:36:24:15 - 00:36:26:20
Unknown
The episodes, like 2 or 3 minutes long,
00:36:27:03 - 00:36:30:00
Unknown
and he's going to do a one man show in London.
00:36:30:00 - 00:36:34:04
Unknown
I think that, you know, especially for actors,
00:36:34:04 - 00:36:35:06
Unknown
you have to keep
00:36:35:06 - 00:36:38:24
Unknown
acting. Well, that's true of all of us. Writers have to write
00:36:38:24 - 00:36:39:22
Unknown
regardless
00:36:39:22 - 00:36:41:01
Unknown
of what's going on.
00:36:41:01 - 00:36:42:06
Unknown
And,
00:36:42:06 - 00:36:43:15
Unknown
funny
00:36:43:15 - 00:36:48:13
Unknown
and this is the last thing I'll say, you know, I'm 74 years old, and
00:36:48:13 - 00:36:51:15
Unknown
I am, as the curmudgeonly,
00:36:51:15 - 00:36:53:01
Unknown
set in my ways
00:36:53:01 - 00:36:55:12
Unknown
as any 74 year old person is.
00:36:55:22 - 00:37:00:14
Unknown
And yet I am still fascinated by the changes that are going on.
00:37:00:24 - 00:37:07:24
Unknown
I was fascinated I came from broadcast television. Suddenly there was cable and I was doing Oz,
00:37:08:09 - 00:37:10:21
Unknown
there was streaming, and I was doing Bhatia
00:37:11:06 - 00:37:18:15
Unknown
the Substack thing, I don't know, I just think of a door opens. Yeah, run to run to get through it.
00:37:19:00 - 00:37:21:02
Unknown
There are so many possibilities.
00:37:21:02 - 00:37:21:22
Unknown
And I
00:37:21:22 - 00:37:23:03
Unknown
I think it's an
00:37:23:03 - 00:37:26:18
Unknown
opportunity for young, creative people to just
00:37:27:13 - 00:37:29:04
Unknown
have fun and
00:37:29:04 - 00:37:34:06
Unknown
say what you need to say. That sense of adventure and curiosity
00:37:34:14 - 00:37:38:14
Unknown
is so beautiful, and my own dad is your age,
00:37:38:23 - 00:37:39:11
Unknown
and I
00:37:39:11 - 00:37:45:00
Unknown
I've given up on him listening to my podcast, but if he if you were to listen to this episode, I would say
00:37:45:00 - 00:37:46:00
Unknown
this is right on dad.
00:37:46:00 - 00:37:52:14
Unknown
It you can be curious and adventurous at any age and never, ever stop. Yeah, it's the truth.
00:37:52:14 - 00:37:57:11
Unknown
so I'm very lucky and I'm very excited to see what the future holds. And what
00:37:57:11 - 00:38:00:18
Unknown
other people come up with and create,
00:38:00:18 - 00:38:03:00
Unknown
Absolutely.
00:38:03:00 - 00:38:03:06
Unknown
Tom,
00:38:03:06 - 00:38:07:23
Unknown
I can't thank you enough for being on the show. My pleasure, my pleasure.
00:38:08:11 - 00:38:11:03
Unknown
Everyone go and rewatch Oz and,
00:38:11:13 - 00:38:22:13
Unknown
all of his other works seen elsewhere, you know, dig into the vaults on. This really is on, homicide on Peacock. Oz is on HBO Max.
00:38:22:13 - 00:38:26:03
Unknown
Saint elsewhere is somewhere I can't remember where.
00:38:26:13 - 00:38:29:21
Unknown
But they're all out there somewhere. God knows.
00:38:30:06 - 00:38:33:02
Unknown
Awesome. Well, you're just such an icon, so thank you
00:38:33:02 - 00:38:33:11
Unknown
so much,
00:38:33:11 - 00:38:33:17
Unknown
Tom.
00:38:33:17 - 00:38:59:16
Unknown
The Vermillion Podcast is sponsored by Vermillion, a home for artists. We offer classes, coaching and community for creatives and innovators in the arts. If you're ready to find your voice and build the life of your dreams, we are here to support you every step of the way. Check out Club vermillion.com and schedule a free call today.
